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	<title>Comments on: If Science Cannot Do Without Nutt&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/</link>
	<description>Floccinaucinihilipilificating antidisestablishmentarianism since 2001.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:33:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6030</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6030</guid>
		<description>Oh, I see. &quot;If you use my bad research as an example of bad research then that is the same as instilling racist dogma in children&quot;. Yes, when you put it like that it makes total sense.

Ugh, it&#039;s moronic. There&#039;s about forty clear and important rebuttals all jostling for position in my head and I&#039;m barely halfway down. I&#039;m going to stop reading before I get cross enough I&#039;m forced to post them and nobody needs to read them all again. I fully credit everyone worth heeding with the ability to figure out the holes in his logic for themselves, not least because, as he points out, schoolchildren can do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I see. &#8220;If you use my bad research as an example of bad research then that is the same as instilling racist dogma in children&#8221;. Yes, when you put it like that it makes total sense.</p>
<p>Ugh, it&#8217;s moronic. There&#8217;s about forty clear and important rebuttals all jostling for position in my head and I&#8217;m barely halfway down. I&#8217;m going to stop reading before I get cross enough I&#8217;m forced to post them and nobody needs to read them all again. I fully credit everyone worth heeding with the ability to figure out the holes in his logic for themselves, not least because, as he points out, schoolchildren can do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6029</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Aust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6029</guid>
		<description>Well, their scientific (I use the term ironically) hero, the saintly Dr Wakefield, has even led the way for them:

(Warning: reading may lead to repetitive banging of head on desk)

http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/06/poisoning-young-minds.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, their scientific (I use the term ironically) hero, the saintly Dr Wakefield, has even led the way for them:</p>
<p>(Warning: reading may lead to repetitive banging of head on desk)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/06/poisoning-young-minds.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/06/poisoning-young-minds.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6028</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6028</guid>
		<description>That does sound like the kind of thing they&#039;d do, but I can&#039;t for the life of me imagine how that argument would go. I can&#039;t even come up with a snide comparison, much less a superficially plausible one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That does sound like the kind of thing they&#8217;d do, but I can&#8217;t for the life of me imagine how that argument would go. I can&#8217;t even come up with a snide comparison, much less a superficially plausible one.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6027</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Aust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6027</guid>
		<description>Oops - Godwin&#039;s law link got scrambled. east to find, anyway. The version I know was the first one 

&quot;The longer an argumentative comments thread goes on, the closer the probability that someone invokes the Nazis in a comparison approaches unity&quot;  (or something like that).

Antivaccine nutter threads are a famous example of this. The anti-vax nutter stock response to any mention of herd immunity is usually to start bleating about Der Fuehrer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops &#8211; Godwin&#8217;s law link got scrambled. east to find, anyway. The version I know was the first one </p>
<p>&#8220;The longer an argumentative comments thread goes on, the closer the probability that someone invokes the Nazis in a comparison approaches unity&#8221;  (or something like that).</p>
<p>Antivaccine nutter threads are a famous example of this. The anti-vax nutter stock response to any mention of herd immunity is usually to start bleating about Der Fuehrer.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6026</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Aust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6026</guid>
		<description>Yes, I wasn&#039;t sure Godwin&#039;s law covered this, but it probably does in one of its usages, according to the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin&#039;s_law

Re. Spiked, they have a slightly odd take on this in that people like Frank Furedi feel that the Govt should impose socialist ideological solutions, hopefully electorally mandated, for roughly everything you can think of, and therefore don&#039;t like the idea of the Govt appearing to &quot;outsource&quot; any part of the decision-making to non-elected and relatively apolitical experts (not that Govts actually do that often - as Spiked correctly says, they just pretend to). The Spiked piece by Brendan O&#039;Neill skewers the Govt quite well, but I think he caricatures Nutt rather for comic effect. When Nutt says that alcohol is far more harmful than dope etc etc, he is only echoing what every single hospital doctor and GP I know routinely tells you as judged by the people rolling up in A&amp;E, or staggering into the surgery.

As to the sacking, the way it was done was utterly ludicrous. If Johnson wants a tame adviser, he can hire one. If he wants an independent committee to tell him what the consensus is among the drug use/abuse harm reduction experts, he has the ACMD. Johnson is perfectly free to ignore their advice (which is what Spiked want him to do), but insisting the adviser must stand to attention and agree with what the Govt has already decided is ridiculous. It is really another version of the &quot;dodgy dossier&quot; problem (&quot;Tony needs this answer - can you make it look like that?&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I wasn&#8217;t sure Godwin&#8217;s law covered this, but it probably does in one of its usages, according to the Wikipedia entry:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin</a>&#8217;s_law</p>
<p>Re. Spiked, they have a slightly odd take on this in that people like Frank Furedi feel that the Govt should impose socialist ideological solutions, hopefully electorally mandated, for roughly everything you can think of, and therefore don&#8217;t like the idea of the Govt appearing to &#8220;outsource&#8221; any part of the decision-making to non-elected and relatively apolitical experts (not that Govts actually do that often &#8211; as Spiked correctly says, they just pretend to). The Spiked piece by Brendan O&#8217;Neill skewers the Govt quite well, but I think he caricatures Nutt rather for comic effect. When Nutt says that alcohol is far more harmful than dope etc etc, he is only echoing what every single hospital doctor and GP I know routinely tells you as judged by the people rolling up in A&amp;E, or staggering into the surgery.</p>
<p>As to the sacking, the way it was done was utterly ludicrous. If Johnson wants a tame adviser, he can hire one. If he wants an independent committee to tell him what the consensus is among the drug use/abuse harm reduction experts, he has the ACMD. Johnson is perfectly free to ignore their advice (which is what Spiked want him to do), but insisting the adviser must stand to attention and agree with what the Govt has already decided is ridiculous. It is really another version of the &#8220;dodgy dossier&#8221; problem (&#8221;Tony needs this answer &#8211; can you make it look like that?&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: barriejohn</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6025</link>
		<dc:creator>barriejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6025</guid>
		<description>Three more drugs advisors have resigned today, following a reassuring meeting with Alan Johnson!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three more drugs advisors have resigned today, following a reassuring meeting with Alan Johnson!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6024</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6024</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s generally called Godwin&#039;s Law, although I don&#039;t know why and don&#039;t care to look it up.

Also lately I read Spiked&#039;s take on the whole thing, which essentially said &quot;have you listened to Nutt? the man&#039;s mad&quot; which may or may not be true but struck me as missing the point: if he actually deserved to be sacked it makes it all the worse that this is what precipitated it. His character is irrelevant; you don&#039;t treat anyone this way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s generally called Godwin&#8217;s Law, although I don&#8217;t know why and don&#8217;t care to look it up.</p>
<p>Also lately I read Spiked&#8217;s take on the whole thing, which essentially said &#8220;have you listened to Nutt? the man&#8217;s mad&#8221; which may or may not be true but struck me as missing the point: if he actually deserved to be sacked it makes it all the worse that this is what precipitated it. His character is irrelevant; you don&#8217;t treat anyone this way.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Aust</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6023</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Aust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6023</guid>
		<description>Which is the internet law that says that invoking Hitler or the Nazis automatically loses you the argument and gets you laughed out of the room?

Or is it just argumentum ad Nazium?

Anyway, it is pathetic, however it is badged. I would be tempted to lock A.N. Wilson and Melanie Phillips in a kind of Sartre Huis Clos type eternal metaphysical hell of moralistic argumentative stupidity, were it not for the fact they&#039;d probably quite enjoy one another&#039;s company.

PS  I&#039;ve done my bit on the Nuttsack affair here:

http://draust.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/kneed-in-the-nutts-or-shot-in-the-foot/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is the internet law that says that invoking Hitler or the Nazis automatically loses you the argument and gets you laughed out of the room?</p>
<p>Or is it just argumentum ad Nazium?</p>
<p>Anyway, it is pathetic, however it is badged. I would be tempted to lock A.N. Wilson and Melanie Phillips in a kind of Sartre Huis Clos type eternal metaphysical hell of moralistic argumentative stupidity, were it not for the fact they&#8217;d probably quite enjoy one another&#8217;s company.</p>
<p>PS  I&#8217;ve done my bit on the Nuttsack affair here:</p>
<p><a href="http://draust.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/kneed-in-the-nutts-or-shot-in-the-foot/" rel="nofollow">http://draust.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/kneed-in-the-nutts-or-shot-in-the-foot/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6014</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6014</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a fan of the Hitler analogy. The reason censoring inconvenient science is bad is not that Hitler did it. If we use Hitler analogy as an argument against replicating the bad things Hitler did then we can&#039;t say &#039;oh, shut up, nobody cares&#039; when people condemn atheism or making the trains run on time because someone once told them Hitler did it and they never bothered to check.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a fan of the Hitler analogy. The reason censoring inconvenient science is bad is not that Hitler did it. If we use Hitler analogy as an argument against replicating the bad things Hitler did then we can&#8217;t say &#8216;oh, shut up, nobody cares&#8217; when people condemn atheism or making the trains run on time because someone once told them Hitler did it and they never bothered to check.</p>
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		<title>By: barriejohn</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6013</link>
		<dc:creator>barriejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6013</guid>
		<description>Never mind, he&#039;ll be out of office next year, as you say, when a completely different set of incompetent nobodies are elected to replace the ones we&#039;ve got at the moment! (I&#039;m old enough to remember PROPER politicians like Joe Grimond, Harold Macmillan, Barbara Castle, Dennis Healey, and so on. Love them or hate them, they&#039;d have eaten the current lot for breakfast - and then asked for more!!) 

BTW Have you seen that a government advisor on nuclear submarines has been sacked, and another has resigned, because their views were not considered acceptable? As you say, the Adolf Hitler analogy seems to be back-to front!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never mind, he&#8217;ll be out of office next year, as you say, when a completely different set of incompetent nobodies are elected to replace the ones we&#8217;ve got at the moment! (I&#8217;m old enough to remember PROPER politicians like Joe Grimond, Harold Macmillan, Barbara Castle, Dennis Healey, and so on. Love them or hate them, they&#8217;d have eaten the current lot for breakfast &#8211; and then asked for more!!) </p>
<p>BTW Have you seen that a government advisor on nuclear submarines has been sacked, and another has resigned, because their views were not considered acceptable? As you say, the Adolf Hitler analogy seems to be back-to front!</p>
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		<title>By: But, Sir&#8230; » Blog Archive &#187; We are not allowed to petition for Alan Johnson to be sacked over his treatment of David Nutt.</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6004</link>
		<dc:creator>But, Sir&#8230; » Blog Archive &#187; We are not allowed to petition for Alan Johnson to be sacked over his treatment of David Nutt.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6004</guid>
		<description>[...] admins of the petition site have rejected the following petition, which I broadly support:  Sack Alan Johnson as Home Secretary. by Ted Smith  Alan Johnson has stepped beyond credible remit [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] admins of the petition site have rejected the following petition, which I broadly support:  Sack Alan Johnson as Home Secretary. by Ted Smith  Alan Johnson has stepped beyond credible remit [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6003</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6003</guid>
		<description>CHRISTMAS PRESENT SUCCESS!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CHRISTMAS PRESENT SUCCESS!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6002</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6002</guid>
		<description>Widdecombe made a big thing on the radio about how she doesn&#039;t defend the government very often, but of course there&#039;s an unforgivably high chance her party will be the government soon and presumably she doesn&#039;t want to attack the government about policies the Conservatives wouldn&#039;t change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Widdecombe made a big thing on the radio about how she doesn&#8217;t defend the government very often, but of course there&#8217;s an unforgivably high chance her party will be the government soon and presumably she doesn&#8217;t want to attack the government about policies the Conservatives wouldn&#8217;t change.</p>
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		<title>By: barriejohn</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-6001</link>
		<dc:creator>barriejohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-6001</guid>
		<description>Great post again. What on earth is Anne Widdecombe being asked her opinions for again? As you say, of course she can&#039;t possibly comprehend the way in which the views of scientists change in the light of new evidence, as HER view of the universe was laid down by a bunch of religiots about two thousand years ago!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post again. What on earth is Anne Widdecombe being asked her opinions for again? As you say, of course she can&#8217;t possibly comprehend the way in which the views of scientists change in the light of new evidence, as HER view of the universe was laid down by a bunch of religiots about two thousand years ago!</p>
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		<title>By: Teek</title>
		<link>http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2009/11/04/if-science-cannot-do-without-nutt/comment-page-1/#comment-5999</link>
		<dc:creator>Teek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=1122#comment-5999</guid>
		<description>Cracking post - Nutt was indeed simply doing his job as a scientist and not campaigning, his sacking is a new low point in the relationship between the (NuLab) government and science. 

btw, love this line...: &quot;which I presume the Daily Mail’s A N Wilson hasn’t read, because it is a book.&quot;

rofl...!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cracking post &#8211; Nutt was indeed simply doing his job as a scientist and not campaigning, his sacking is a new low point in the relationship between the (NuLab) government and science. </p>
<p>btw, love this line&#8230;: &#8220;which I presume the Daily Mail’s A N Wilson hasn’t read, because it is a book.&#8221;</p>
<p>rofl&#8230;!!</p>
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