Yeah? Well I don’t believe that you don’t believe that I believe…
September 19th, 2008I just read a brilliant article on the Times’ website:
That the world was created by an invisible deity, that He later impregnated a virgin who then bore a son who was His own father, that we have immortal souls and will live for ever in Heaven if we are good and love Jesus – how can anyone who has even attended high school believe such things? …Â It defies belief. …Â And if something defies belief, a good starting position is not to believe it. That is my position. I am not shocked by the persistence of religious belief in the West because I do not believe it exists. …Â The real test for genuine belief is not what people say, but what they do. To believe something is to be disposed to act upon it. The vast majority of Western Christians fail this test.
I’m not convinced I buy the argument (nor that the author does) — applying logic to the actions of idiots rarely has much predictive value — but it’s certainly worth raising for discussion. As with everything written about religion or atheism on high-traffic websites, though, the actual discussion that follows is moronic. The very first comment is this:
The liberals’ belief in man-made ‘global warming’ is just as ‘irrational’ as the traditional religious beliefs that the author decries. There is the same lack of evidence, the high priests like Al Gore, faith over science, proselytization, tithing, scorn of non-believers, etc.
Kevin Finnerty, Atlanta, USA
Relevance is a sin.
I’m a Catholic. My election vote always goes to the candidate most likely to vote for policies that will save unborn lives. Issues such as health care, education and housing are of little significance if the right to life is not accorded to all human beings at all stages of development.
Julia, Manchester, UK
I would say you have issues, but that would be to miscount.
First, just because someone calls themself a Christian, does not mean that they are in fact a Christian…
John, USA,
That’s not a counter-argument; that’s paraphrasing. Those are the first three comments. I find myself wanting to just post all of them. That would take ages, so trust me that the ones I’m ignoring are also great. I mean — just look for Paul from Dallas and also London…Â For reference, Pauls’ logic seems to go like this: assuming A and B leads to a contradcition, therefore the contradiction is true.
But it’s not just Christians who don’t follow through. Determinists continue to talk as if they were “free” to judge the validity of an argument. And atheists aren’t always the self-interested hedonists one might expect from believers in a meaningless universe with only a darwinian moral compass!
JS, Glasgow, UK
JS has failed to get drunk and start a fight, so I’m forced to conclude that he hasn’t followed through on his claim to be from Glasgow. And one might argue that it’s wrong to mock the determinists, because they don’t have a choice but to behave that way.
Fundamentalism and political correctness are pretty much the same thing, dressed up from the same wardrobe as the emperor’s new clothes.
Rick Hepner, Salt Lake City, USA
I have literally no idea what this is supposed to mean.
… Would Mr Whyte still hold to his argument if state and church rejoined and gave him ‘heavenly’ policies with ‘heavenly’ consequences? I doubt it.
Ali, Colchester, Essex
How amazing is that? “Yes, but would you think so if the evidence pointed the other way? Ha, then you can’t really believe it!”. That’s about the most Religion idea I’ve ever heard.
I don’t believe many atheists really believe what they claim to believe. …
Paul, Nottingham,
I wasn’t aware we claimed to believe anything. I thought that was the point.
Surely this line of argument applies just as surely to atheists. What about the weight of living without a God? Your line of reasoning exposes you as one who does not believe either
David , London,
Oh crap, he’s right. I don’t go to church or recklessly shag prostitutes, so I guess I neither believe in God nor not believe in God. Great, now I’m in an existential quandary. Thanks a lot.
I’m curious – Mr Whyte – what would be your position on all the atheists and agnostics who celebrate Christmas… send cards, give presents, and put up Xmas trees? Are they self-delusional too? Or just cheerfully hypocritical?
Jay, Aberystwyth, Wales
Yeah, and what about the infidels who watch soaps but don’t write to the characters? Hypocrites!
What we truly believe can be politically inexpedient, personally challenging, socially isolating, painfulful or even meaningless, and we are free to ignore it when convenient and profess it when advantageous. And we do. It depends on who we are, where we are and when and who with.
Lars Torders, lowestoft,Â
“The truth can be inconvenient, so it’s okay to just ignore it.” Do you work for the McCain campaign?
This country has struggled for many years with the issue of Tolerance. We’ve moved slowly and painfully towards racial, sexual and cultural tolerance; Because we are an increasingly multicultural society. Yet this article is filled with religious intolerance. Embrace love, not hate. Jesus is love.
Chris, Coventry,
Ooh, you almost had it there, but you just had to blow it at the last minute…
Mr. Whyte, your “arguments” seem to me like a poor copy of Richard Dawkins’. The question to ask is not … ”do foetuses have an ‘immortal soul’ since conception?” … but … ’if a foetus is a ‘project’ of human person, do we have the right to dispose of it as though it was a mere ‘thing’?”
Miguel de Servet, Villanueva de Sijena, Spain
These issues are always easier when you phrase them so they don’t make sense.
And as for “if something defies belief, a good starting position is not to believe it,” – well that’s patently ludicrous. If Scientists failed to believe what begin as abstract theories how would it progress? …
Matt, Birmingham, UK
We prove things, you moron. After we’ve done that it’s okay to believe them. “If we didn’t just make shit up, how would we ever progress?”
It’s sad isn’t it.I agree, surely if Christians lived by the Bible,a book promoting peace&hating wrong-doing, then this world would be a very different place.Christians are failures,I think most, including me, would admit that. That’s why Jesus came on the scene…please investigate his life!
Amy, West Bromwich,
We have done and it’s made up. Also, you have clearly never read the Bible.
“The real test for genuine belief is not what people say, but what they do”. This applies to atheists just as much as to religious believers and the new atheists, clinging to the morality of the Sermon on the Mount , and not the morality of the survival of the fittest , abysmally fail the test.
Jamie, London, UK
You know who I hate? It’s those hypocrite mathematicians who don’t base their morality on set theory. Them and Abraham Fleury, San Diego, USA, who can’t tell the word ‘ludicrous’ from the rapper Ludacris.
What “lack of evidence for the central tenets of Christianity”? The conversion of untold numbers of previous “avowed atheists” to Christianity is pretty good evidence. …
Mike T., Roseville, CA, USA
I used to be Catholic. Discuss.
I don’t believe that atheists such as Jamie Whyte really are atheists. He doesn’t live acccording to his beliefs as an atheist. If he did he would not live as if there is right and wrong or that he loves his family or friends or delights in beauty or that his reasoning has any validity.
Kenneth Brownell, London,
I’ve heard “God = Morality” before, and “Jesus = Love”, but I’ve never heard “God = Valid Reasoning”.
Jesus and God are real. Of this I have no doubt. Look at the universe.Look at the trees. Look at the insects. Look at DNA. My word to believe that all of this could possibly spring up from nothing and on its own takes way more faith to believe than believing in God. Search your hearts. God is real.
Buddy, Springfield, United States
I had my DNA sequenced. It went like this: “GTACACAGATTACAGTCTHEREISNOGODTTGACTA”. Personally, I think it’s a message from aliens.
That article truly breaks my heart! how can someone say these things so bluntly, and as if the were all true! Looking into a true Christians heart, you would find SO many wonderful things: love, joy, passion, authenticity, respect, honor. I just do not understand why you would disclaim that!
Allison, Oklahoma City, USA
As an atheist, my heart is just a muscley pump and I am forced to keep that stuff in my brain.
Tags for this article: Arguments in the comments , Morons' Opinions
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July 3rd, 2009 at 23:45
I think the funniest post here is by Allison from Oklahoma city. DNA sequenced. That is really funny.
God has a lot of witt too. Then he has his other side that is not so funny. How do I know? In the Spring of 2006 God came to my house and had a very long talk with me.
July 4th, 2009 at 00:02
Gods big message is about the meaning of “First is Last and Last is First”. First, means the very first thing that happens to you on Earth. Birth on Earth is First. Or Birth equals First. Are you following me? God is saying that “Birth is Last”. What that means is that you really haven’t been born yet in Gods World. Now for the next part of Gods message “Last is First”. When you die(last) in this world it is your birthday in the next. Last now becomes First. Birth is First. Or Birth is Last and Birth is First, in that order.
To summarized God is saying that Life is continuous. The End is also the Beginning. We all live in a cycle of life and so Does God. God also has an End and a Beginning.
July 4th, 2009 at 00:32
God also has a very different story about the life and death of Jesus. God says Christ dies in Rome at a Roman event, not Jerusalem. He also said that after the event Christs body is thrown out with the trash after the event. Christ does not get his old body back. No one sees Christ walking around in his old dead body. He gets a new body in Heaven, his old body is now trash. God also says that Christs name was not Jesus. Jesus’ real name was John. John’s last name is Doe. John Doe died on the Cross in Rome with others. God says that the House of David was taken to Rome by those that thought they were smarter, better, superior, to be taught a lesson. That is the word of God.
God disagrees with the New Testament in a number of places. What that means is that the Bible was written by men and not God. Some one made it all up. Except God says you are resurrected, so they got a few things right. Constantine probably found information about the resurrection from the Old Testament.
Just because the New Testament is made up does not mean that God is not real. God is very real. God talked to me so I know for a fact that God is real. .
July 4th, 2009 at 00:36
In 2007 God had this message:
“We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day”.
That is the word of God, word for word. I changed nothing.
July 4th, 2009 at 00:40
This is all fascinating stuff.
July 4th, 2009 at 00:47
Note the order in the message above from God. First he says we Die, after we die we are born. Birth is Last. This message links up with his first message in 2006, “First will be Last and Last will be First” or First is Last and Last is First
God had a lot more to say but I don’t want to fill up your blog. Melanie
July 4th, 2009 at 01:18
I think the essential problem with religious people is that they start with a conclusion and work backwards. No matter how crazy the path they take is, they absolutely have to arrive at that conclusion.
July 4th, 2009 at 08:35
“God disagrees with the New Testament in a number of places”. I disagree with the New Testament in a number of places. Ergo, I am God!
July 4th, 2009 at 15:25
“We each die in succession, then we are born on the same dayâ€.
In the above message from God, he uses the word WE. We, means a group of people. God is very precise in his choice of words. God does not use the word ALL or Everyone. He also gives an example of people that are going to Heaven that is linked to this message. God says that Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin and Nancy Reagan are going to Heaven. Mike Douglas died in 2006 on his Birthday. Merv who lived and almost identical life to Mike dies in 2007 the day after Mike. Merv lived 1 year, 1 month, and 1 day longer the Mike. Merv Griffin and Nancy Reagan were life long friends. Nancy and Merv are born on the same day. Note that all of these people
Mike Douglas is also linked to Gods message about First is Last by dying on his Birthday.
God also says we are born on the same day. I had to give a lot of thought to what the same day meant. Even though I have counted a number of days that I have been alive, in Heaven terms my life is 1 day long and so is yours. God is still in the day. (I will explain this later.)
Since a group of people are going to Heaven this also means that there is a group of people that are not going to be born in Heaven. Hell is very real and so is Death.
(Death in Heaven means you no longer exist or you just vanish.)
July 4th, 2009 at 15:49
I am not as precise as God. I meant to say.
Note that all of these people were wealthy. Money is not a factor in getting into Heaven. The Church says that a rich man can not enter into the gates of Heaven because they want you to leave all your money inside the Church before you leave. The Church wants your money!! The few times I have gone to Church most of the talk is about tithing. I hate people asking me for money and I don’t have much to give either. So I didn’t go back.
Nancy Reagan is still alive and God says that she is going to Heaven. So her name is already in the book, or in Gods Will. Besides having money Nancy is also interested in Astrology. Otherwise I know very little about her life. Since she is a celebrity, information about her life can be found in a simple Google search. God picks celebrities as examples because there is lots of information on these people lives. You don’t have to be a celebrity to get into Heaven. God says that I am going to Heaven and I am not any one important.
July 4th, 2009 at 15:52
Man, that sucks, when God says you’re not anyone important.
July 4th, 2009 at 16:17
God also gives more examples of where other people are going after they die. God says that:
Richard Dawkins goes to Heaven, Leona Helmsley goes to Hell, and Jerry Falwell Vanishes.
That’s right you read it. God says that the Atheist goes to Heaven. The Bible toting Evangleist gets Death. And Leona was just a mean person so she gets Hell. Again all of these people are celebrities, Google search if you like. What I read about Jerry and Leona is that both were disliked by a lot of people. God must have felt the same way about these two. He must have hated Leona the most.
Again Richard Dawkins is still alive and he is the book headed for Heaven. Leona and Jerry are both dead. Leona right now is in Hell, she was also born on the 4th of July, that’s today. I found it interesting that Jerry Falwell and Mike Douglas were both born on the same day. The only difference is that Jerry did not die on his Birthday.
July 4th, 2009 at 16:30
Hi Andrew,
God did not say I am not important. I am just not a celebrity and don’t care to be. Most people would say that I am not important by their standards. I don’t have a big house, a fancy car, nice clothes, lots of money or an important position like being in charge of a big Corporation.
And this site keeps saying that: Error: apparently you aren’t smart enough to pass a simple test… So, I have to go back and enter five lower-case ‘b’ s.
July 4th, 2009 at 20:51
Hi Melanie. Next time you see God, can you tell him that I’m a big fan of his work, although France is a bit rubbish and he probably could’ve spent a couple of extra days making wasps a little less annoying.
July 5th, 2009 at 02:12
Hi Ben, I got the impression that you are across the pond. I am in Upstate New York. God already knows your a fan, I don’t need to tell him. He is with you all the time. If you knew how much he watched you, certain activities would be hard to preform. I did have a talk with God about wasps, ticks, bugs and disease. He said nothing. I was annoyed with him on about this. His mouth is shut on this subject? He never answers my questions.
Hi Andrew, I enjoyed reading all about Shazanity and the Great Mog. It was funny. I am sure God enjoyed it too. Now you can add Leona to your list of the Damned. Is Steve a qualified prophet? (With a degree?) If so he needs to do some more writing, your Bible needs more pages.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:30
Are you affiliated in any way to the world-famous Landover Baptists, Melanie? I think their site would be of great interest to you. Sister Talitha is their current spokesperson, but we are working on that, due to the scriptural prohibition on women usurping man`s authority. (You might like to give this some thought yourself!) See http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
July 5th, 2009 at 15:08
Hi BarrieJohn, I will check it out he Landover Baptists. And NO I am not affiliated with anyone. I think Sister Talitha should draw a line through the scriture that says she can’t preach. Mine is already blacked out. Or she could use “white out”. They both work well. A man put it in there a woman needs to cross it out. It’s a womans job to clean things up. The Church has been tinkering with the Bible for years, it time to remove the trash they put in the holy book. God approves this message.
July 5th, 2009 at 15:11
So, Islam, then?
July 5th, 2009 at 16:39
Hi Andrew,
God does not pick on any one Church or Religion. God says they all have false prophets. Even though Pope Benedict the 16th is our Earthly Father and is the head of a Pagan Catholic Church (Not the true Church), God still loves the Pope and the he is on the list of those going to Heaven. Pagans go to Heaven too. I like the Pope too.
Hold on here, How is the Pope a Pagan? I will explain. The Church says that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Jesus died for you. That’s human sacrifice. Human sacrifice is a Pagan practice. The Romans did a lot of that. So did the Northern Europeans at Stonehenge. Everyone did it. Jesus was the sacrifical Lamb. When Constantine created the New Testament he incorporated that concept into the bible.
July 5th, 2009 at 16:57
God does not Contradict the Old Testament that I know of. The Jewish Religion could be the True Church. They are still waiting for their Savior. He hasn’t come yet.
July 5th, 2009 at 17:54
Hey Melanie, can you ask God what number I’m thinking of?
July 5th, 2009 at 18:29
No man put ANYTHING in the Holy Bible Melanie. Every single word is miraculously inspired by God! We know this because it says so in the Bible!!
July 5th, 2009 at 18:54
Hi Friz, I was busy watching Wimbleton. What a match. Federer finally won!!! I was routing for him. I have no idea what number you are thinking of. Is it between 1 and 10? I don’t think God is going to play this game.
Hi BarrieJohn, If you believe the bible is the Word of God that’s fine and dandy. Dandy and Fine. Besides human sacrifice being a Pagan concept. I have more proof. The New Testament is written in Hebrew, cause it was written by the hebrews. The Old Testament was written in Greek because it was written by the Romans. Now Yeshua is the name of the Messiah or the Savior in the OT. The Greeks tranlated the names in the OT, Yeshua does not translate into Jesus. The name Je-Sus is two greek words combined together. Sus in Greek means Swine. The name Jesus means Pigman. That is what the Romans thought of the Jews. The Jews were Swine. That is your religion. The Romans are making fun of the Jewish religion. Besides that the letter J does not exist in the Hebrew language. Before the 1600’s Jesus was spelled Iesus. Signs of Tinkering. You can look up the meaning of Greek words yourself, it is easy now that we have the Internet. Do you need more proof than this?
July 5th, 2009 at 19:01
Sorry I wrote that backwards. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek. I wish God could write, he wouldn’t make mistakes like that. Again sorry for the error.
July 5th, 2009 at 22:08
I don`t know what country you are living in Melanie, but all our Bibles here in the UK are written in good old English! And as someone so rightly said: “If the King James Version was good enough for Saint Paul, then it`s good enough for me!”
July 5th, 2009 at 22:13
Now a quotation from Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil): “It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he wished to become an author – and not to learn it better.” I can tell you as an ex-evangelical, who pored over lexicons, dictionaries, concordances, and so on, for many an hour, that that statement is absolutely hilarious!
July 5th, 2009 at 22:16
Lastly, regarding my statement above regarding the proof of the Bible being found in…the Holy Bible; please go to http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/ and scroll down to the very funny set of cartoons, where you will find one on that very subject!!
July 6th, 2009 at 00:39
I live in the United States. The State I live in is New York. I do not live in the city of New York. I live farther North from NY City. We call it Upstate here. I live in the Syracuse Metro Area. I don’t know how many people live here but it is a big city. A man named John Dryden lived here in the late 1700’s and he had an interest in Roman History. John Dyrden is the man that named all of the towns surrounding Syracuse after Roman Generals. Each General is known for something. Three of these Generals link up to a story about Heaven, Life and Death. Rome is due east from here. Yes, there is a Rome in New York State. Now I didn’t always live here. God set this story up before I was ever born. After God had everything set in place he told me Three Dreams. The first, second and third dream were about, is this order:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death.
Three dreams and three simple sentences. The dreams came in this order. Put together they say a lot. Note that First is Last and Last is First. Morning, Afternoon, Evening is One Day. My life is one day.
I don’t always write this simply. I am trying to do my best here. Now during the day God tells me that everything in the Dreams has meaning right down to the very last, smallest, detail. I have no idea what anything in dreams means, so I have to figure it out. Right down to the very last detail. It wasn’t easy. Now most people can’t remember their dreams, me too, but these dreams were very different from any dream I have ever had. I has been more than 3 years since the dreams and I still remember everything. That’s enough for now.
P.S. * * * I liked the Landover Baptist site the best, that I found funny. Really funny, Thanks for the Link. The other site wasn’t as humorous. It was more sarcastic. I don’t like sarcasim that much.
July 6th, 2009 at 10:09
That’s really inconvenient, actually. I had plans this evening.
July 10th, 2009 at 14:05
Wow, you’re right. Your commenters are a bit mental. They do know this is just your blog, right?
July 10th, 2009 at 14:15
I can’t think what else they might imagine it to be, but then thinking is probably the wrong approach.
July 11th, 2009 at 09:30
Actually, no one visits this blog except you and me, Katie. All the other comments are posted by Andrew himself, but it makes him feel good! It`s very sad really.
July 13th, 2009 at 23:03
Andrew, can’t you change the Captcha code question to “is there a God?”