Comments on: The Problem with Secularism http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/ Floccinaucinihilipilificating antidisestablishmentarianism since 2001. Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:35:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Andrew http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/#comment-5172 Andrew Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:09:08 +0000 http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=895#comment-5172 Yes, I saw that one a few times. I'm slightly worried that they seem to have about three different ads and have apparently only found one desirable-looking Muslim girl. I have a whole draft blogpost making fun of that I haven't published yet. I might dig it out. Yes, I saw that one a few times. I’m slightly worried that they seem to have about three different ads and have apparently only found one desirable-looking Muslim girl.

I have a whole draft blogpost making fun of that I haven’t published yet. I might dig it out.

]]> By: Dave http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/#comment-5171 Dave Sun, 17 Aug 2008 07:27:07 +0000 http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=895#comment-5171 I think I just saw the most amazing advert ever http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1885/muslimks6.jpg I fucking love it. I think I just saw the most amazing advert ever

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1885/muslimks6.jpg

I fucking love it.

]]> By: Recent Faves Tagged With "secularism" : MyNetFaves http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/#comment-5170 Recent Faves Tagged With "secularism" : MyNetFaves Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:45:04 +0000 http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=895#comment-5170 [...] public links >> secularism The Problem with Secularism First saved by GatitaSakura | 2 days ago Book Review: My Name Is Red First saved by tlcwyo | 2 [...] [...] public links >> secularism The Problem with Secularism First saved by GatitaSakura | 2 days ago Book Review: My Name Is Red First saved by tlcwyo | 2 [...]

]]> By: Andrew http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/#comment-5111 Andrew Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:50:13 +0000 http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=895#comment-5111 I've seen that statistic in a couple of places. Neither cited the source, though, so I can't personally vouch for it. Possibly one made it up and the other read it there. Certainly I don't think it's a good predictor of votes, but you only need 51% to totally control all polls, elections and referendums. I wasn't trying to equivocate Islam with insanity so much as analogise it, and it holds equally well for any religion. Looking back at it I realise I didn't ever make it explicit, which was pretty stupid of me, but these things will happen. What I meant was that nobody would think that it was a good idea to run a lunatic asylum based on democratic polls of the inmates. No, you run it according to laws chosen democratically by the sane people outside (hence the "sanity" reference) because that way you can eliminate the influence of insanity on the results. Similarly, if a secular democracy tries to eliminate the influence of religion from the vote, it's doomed to fail if the voters are monopolised by one religion. You need a baseline irreligious -- or at a pinch, multifaith -- ("sane") voting block to cancel out the fundamentalists. Increasingly in America this doesn't exist, and the effects are plain to see: despite the First Amendment's assurances to the contrary nobody other than Christians can possibly get elected, and even though God is never directly referenced, fairly fundamentalist Christian viewpoints repeatedly get enshrined in law regarding Creationism, abortion, contraception and so forth, all because there's no proper secular opposition. And even on the census the US is nowhere near 99% Christian. It's impossible to stop people voting according to their faith, and it's undesirable to try to control what people believe, so the only option as I see it is to engineer an environment unfavourable to the propagation of this kind of parasitic meme. One where it's easy for people to leave a religion and difficult for them to impose one on their children. In that environment, with any luck, the population will stay sufficiently irreligious and/or balanced that no religion will have any significant political sway. Good spot. Thanks for pointing that out. I’ve seen that statistic in a couple of places. Neither cited the source, though, so I can’t personally vouch for it. Possibly one made it up and the other read it there. Certainly I don’t think it’s a good predictor of votes, but you only need 51% to totally control all polls, elections and referendums.

I wasn’t trying to equivocate Islam with insanity so much as analogise it, and it holds equally well for any religion. Looking back at it I realise I didn’t ever make it explicit, which was pretty stupid of me, but these things will happen. What I meant was that nobody would think that it was a good idea to run a lunatic asylum based on democratic polls of the inmates. No, you run it according to laws chosen democratically by the sane people outside (hence the “sanity” reference) because that way you can eliminate the influence of insanity on the results. Similarly, if a secular democracy tries to eliminate the influence of religion from the vote, it’s doomed to fail if the voters are monopolised by one religion. You need a baseline irreligious — or at a pinch, multifaith — (”sane”) voting block to cancel out the fundamentalists. Increasingly in America this doesn’t exist, and the effects are plain to see: despite the First Amendment’s assurances to the contrary nobody other than Christians can possibly get elected, and even though God is never directly referenced, fairly fundamentalist Christian viewpoints repeatedly get enshrined in law regarding Creationism, abortion, contraception and so forth, all because there’s no proper secular opposition. And even on the census the US is nowhere near 99% Christian.

It’s impossible to stop people voting according to their faith, and it’s undesirable to try to control what people believe, so the only option as I see it is to engineer an environment unfavourable to the propagation of this kind of parasitic meme. One where it’s easy for people to leave a religion and difficult for them to impose one on their children. In that environment, with any luck, the population will stay sufficiently irreligious and/or balanced that no religion will have any significant political sway.

Good spot. Thanks for pointing that out.

]]> By: Vicky http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/2008/08/02/the-problem-with-secularism/#comment-5110 Vicky Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:19:58 +0000 http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=895#comment-5110 I'm a little unsure about the 99% Muslim statistic. Is it definitely accurate? And just because people tick that box on the census doesn't mean we can predict which way they'll vote or why or how open to rational argument they are. In fact, much as I enjoy this blog, I'll stop beating about the bush. This sentence: "in a population 99% Islamic, you really have no baseline level of sanity to refer back to" sounds like a very harsh insult to 67.8m people - or 67.1, if you prefer. (stats from FCO website) It's a good argument, but spoiled by arrogant-sounding generalisations. I’m a little unsure about the 99% Muslim statistic. Is it definitely accurate? And just because people tick that box on the census doesn’t mean we can predict which way they’ll vote or why or how open to rational argument they are.

In fact, much as I enjoy this blog, I’ll stop beating about the bush. This sentence:
“in a population 99% Islamic, you really have no baseline level of sanity to refer back to”
sounds like a very harsh insult to 67.8m people - or 67.1, if you prefer. (stats from FCO website)

It’s a good argument, but spoiled by arrogant-sounding generalisations.

]]>