Religious Crackpot Of The Month — August 2007: Facts For Life
August 18th, 2007This month’s Religious Crackpot Thereof award goes to a crazy monk whom I met some months ago now. What? Don’t look at me like that; the Nobel Prizes are awarded to stuff that happened years before the date on the certificate. Besides, he was a Hare Krishna, and whoever heard of Hare Krishnas bombing someone for saying bad things about them? This crazy monk, whose name alas I do not know, spotted me when I was some distance away. I knew he was going to talk at me, but I thought, what the hell, what’s the worst that can happen?
“Hello.â€
“Hello.â€
“Have you ever met a monk?â€
“No.â€
“Well, now you have.†He was about my height, dressed in a terracotta robe (the colour, not the material), and he was completely bald except for a ponytail, and possibly a tuft at the front. I can’t remember for certain – the haircuts of people I only met once are not a priority for my long term memory. He talked to me briefly about nothing very much and then handed me a little purple book with the phrase “FACTS FOR LIFE†printed on the front in big, friendly letters. After that he told me to shout “gouranga!â€, which I didn’t, because we were standing in Leeds city centre and I though it might get looks. I think he meant generally anyway, rather than right then and there.
Later that day, I read his book. It was hilarious. This is the bulk of the blurb on the back:
This is NOT a sentimental religious book! It is: candid, cutting, explicit, unerringly logical, penetrating, revealing, stimulating yet grave and deep, irresistible reading!
Precisely one of those adjectives can reasonably describe the book: “revealingâ€. Let’s have a look at some “unerringly logical†statements from the author, “today’s greatest authority on Vedic knowledgeâ€. Exactly what definition of “today†is being used here is unclear, since the author in question died in 1977, fully 25 years before the book was published.
Charles Hennis: I don’t think you can expect an international organisation to indoctrinate people…
Srila Prabhupada: Why not? It should be international…
Note that the book is a collection of conversations between the author, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and a succession of morons – in one case including “one of his disciples … taking the part of a materialistic scientistâ€. I prefer to think of it as a really crap play. And remember, it’s “unerringly logicalâ€.
Srila Prabhupada: Krishna says, … “After death the spirit soul enters another material body.†We accept it. We don’t require proof from a so-called scientist, who is imperfect.
Doctor: So the question of belief comes first.
Srila Prabhupada: It is not belief; it is fact.
Doctor: Yes, but how do you prove the fact?
Srila Prabhupada: That Krishna says so is proof.
Watch it fail to err!
Srila Prabhupada: But consider the cow: we drink her milk, and therefore she is our mother. Do you agree?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely.
The back of the book says that the author “speaks out on … Women’s Liberationâ€. What I wasn’t expecting was for him to speak out against women’s liberation:
The woman should be subordinate to the man, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then the woman is not a problem for the public.
I swear, it says that. If you can track down a copy, it says it on page 43.
Srila Prabhupada: Why isn’t it scientific [to take everything in the Bhagavad-gita on faith]? The Bhagavad-gita says … “All living entities subsist by eating sufficient food grains, and grains are produced from rainâ€. Is that belief?
Disciple: That must be true.
Srila Prabhupada: Similarly, everything in the Bhagavad-gita is true.
What I love about this book is that you can open it at random and nine times out of ten you’ll hit something laughably insane. I just opened it, quite at random, to page 60/61. Here is some of page 61:
In India, many men are already unemployed, so to introduce more machines there is not a very good proposal. One hundred men’s work can be done by one man working a machine. But why should there be so many men unemployed? Why not engage one hundred men instead of one?
He’s a bloody Luddite! He goes on:
Here in the West, also, there is much unemployment. Because in your Western countries everything is done by machine, you are creating many hippies, frustrated young people with nothing to do. … Everyone should be employed, otherwise there will be trouble. “An idle brain is a devil’s workshop.â€
Ah, there’s the nub: everyone should have a boring monotonous job so they don’t think too much. Let’s open the book once more, again at random. This time I hit pages 112 and 113. Here’s some of the latter:
When you are walking, your brain is working—“Go this way; go that way; a car is comingâ€â€”
It’s important to remember this is Important Vedic Teaching, and not one of the songs from Trumpton.
—and your brain says to your legs, “Come to this side.†Now, the work of the brain and the work of the legs are different, but the central point is one—to get you safely across the street.
This time, I opened it to pages 70 and 71. On page 71 (and a bit on page 72), a priest annoys Prabhupada by using his own logic against him. Prabhupada criticised the priest for eating animals despite a commandment Not to Kill. The priest points out that obviously it can’t mean do not kill anything, ever, or else by the same logic Prabhupada and his disciples are wrong to kill and eat potatoes. Prabhupada squirms and fails to win the argument, despite having a defensible position for a change. Why this exchange was included in the book is a mystery.
But all this fun and random-page frivolity aside, the part of this book that worries me the most is, well, the entirety of the Hare Krishna philosophy. Honestly, it has to be the shittest religion ever. I mean, at least Scientology lets you have some fun, assuming you can still afford to after you pay their fees. Let me outline the Hare Krishna religion, as I understand it from this book.
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It is not possible to be truly happy in this “materialistic†world.
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After you die, you will reincarnate.
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If you have fun (or, more accurately, a “very convincing experience†of happiness) then you will reincarnate in some really crappy way, perhaps as a tree or a beetle or a Hare Krishna monk.
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The best thing you can do it become a monk or get a boring, monotonous job so you don’t really notice how crap everything is.
So that’s that. Life’s shit and it goes on forever. What a marvellous message for today’s young people. And a worthy winner, I think, of Religious Crackpot Of The Month.
Note that this page can be accessed at http://www.apathysketchpad.com/blog/?p=663 since the normal URL is a bit of a pain with the em-dash. I’ll try not to use those any more.
Tags for this article: Arguments in the comments , Hare Krishna , Religious Crackpot of the Month
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August 19th, 2007 at 02:20
You can’t deny that life is shit though. Even if he has a nutso way of going on about it.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:20
I remember reading this book, it was so funny. And the beauty was that you could go back to it time and time again and it would still be funny. It should be in the comedy section at your local Waterstones (as all the independent bookstores have been put out of business by Harry Plopper)
I do back his stance on womens liberation however. Unless Amy is reading this.
August 19th, 2007 at 12:04
Your life might be shit. Mine happens to be great. His point is that life is necessarily shit, which is clearly ludicrous. Religion does very little good in the world, and what little good it does is usually supporting people whose lives are shit and giving them some meaning. I don’t think saying “don’t worry, it’s supposed to be shit” is the best way to do that.
I’m amazed this religion still exists.
October 31st, 2007 at 14:18
These dharma bums are always begging for money. The leaders of the Hare Krsna movement are stinking rich, yet if any of their devotees need money, they have to go bum it off someone else. Have you ever seen a Hare Krsna tip a car park attendant? Me neither.
October 31st, 2007 at 14:21
These dharma bums are always begging for money. The leaders of the Hare Krishna movement are stinking rich, yet if any of their devotees need money, they have to go bum it off someone else. Have you ever seen a Hare Krsna tip a car park attendant? Me neither.
March 30th, 2008 at 19:33
Upon which evidence do you base your claims? I have read this book and having looked at this blog realised that the evidence you present is either taken out of context or misinterprated. Furthermore you have done little more than
attempt to ridicule the teachings of the book and indeed vedic culture (which is not a religion but an observational science), wheras if you had understood the book you would realise that your ridicule is merely a manifestation of Lord Krishnas spirit…who is also a rascal ;) (reread the book and you may have some understanding of what that means).
You nonchantly say you cannot remember the monks name, his hair, what was said and so how are we to trust your observational – analytical skills. Seems you don’t have much time to pay attention to detail.
It seems your biggest bone of contention is with the books unerring logic. You seem to want to point out it is illogical. However you get confused by matters of materialism. In truth, the only verification of a logical perspective is its coherence and if you examine the evidence, the vedic teachings and Swami Prabhupadas’ readings of them are indeed coherent. There is nothing wrong in questioniing, but fist understood what you are questioning.
I myself, am not a Hare Krishna, this is obvious or I would not be wasting my time posting this to you, I would be chanting ‘Hare Krishna’ in the streets and not being self conscious of who is looking at me. I would be happy. So far, reading such literature as the book mentioned has been an enlightening experience and not a ridiculous one.This man dedicated his entire existence to the search for truth and to ridicule such efforts is nothing short of an insult to anything great that maybe found in the entire of humanity. If you take nothing else from this message, please remember this….any form of criticism is a form of autobiography!
Hare Krishna
p.s. Ever met a miserable Monk?
March 30th, 2008 at 19:48
Attention to detail, is it? Only I don’t think I so much as implied that I was ever told his name.
By your apparent standards, probably, yes.
March 30th, 2008 at 20:41
So please can you inform me of your superior standards of coherence and knowledge.
March 30th, 2008 at 21:32
That would seem like a colossal waste of my time.
You think that memorising trivial details about people I met exactly once for less than five minutes months earlier when I wasn’t told I’d ever have cause to reference them again is a valid test of my observational — and even more bizarrely, analytical — skills. You think that a book that says that women should be subordinate to men is “enlightening”. And you think that a system of logic where the word of Krishna is taken as unquestionable fact is “logical” — and, indeed, “an observational science” — purely on the basis that it’s internally consistent (which it isn’t).
Can we just assume that my standards for coherence and knowledge (whatever that might mean) are a few notches higher than yours?
March 30th, 2008 at 22:45
It is a test of your analytical skills on the basis that analysis is dependent on detail.
Does the book actually say that women should be subordinate to men? That is not the way I read it. The book stresses that we celebrate the differences between the sexes. This does not mean that it calls into question equality. In fact it does the direct opposite, in that true equality can only be found in diversity not homogeneity.Also, to be perfect, the teachings of Krishna is to be devoid of any relationship anyway, so it quickens the return to Godhead.
In the same way that Descartes begins with a statement that is utterly certain upon which to build the rest of his knowledge (the Cogito) the Vedic teachings do the same. To Krishnas, Krishna is perfect. They begin with this statement and continue as they have done over centuries to build the rest of their knowledge to realising this ‘truth.’ Krishnas word is their truth, as Krishna is perfect so are his words. This realisation is founded upon questioning Krishnas perfection until eventually you must accept it as truth as he has passed every test.
That’s internally consistent. Please show me how it is not . I can argue science is speculative on the basis that it operates within a set paradigm up until that paradigm is overthrown and replaced (the move from the newtonian to quantum physics for example). Also, you will find certain aspects of quantum physics are now referring to the ancient vedic scriptures. But to be honest, that is a collosal waste of my time. This is nonsense that I don’t have time for! But, for interests sake, I would like to know what you think Women have been liberated from?
I believe your resistance to tell us what your position is for ‘coherence’(a good word!)is a lack of courage in your convictions, unless of course you have no convictions.
You assume that your standards are a few notches higher, which is a futile exercise.It’s not a game! The point is that with Swami Prabhupada, is that his teachings are not speculative but perfect, because he accepts the source as perfect. He makes no assumptions. He is not self important but a devotee to the transmission of a universal truth and he is certainly not a ridiculous man
March 30th, 2008 at 23:16
Yes. On pages 42-43, in the chapter headed “Women’s Liberation”, Prabhupada says,
I’m intrigued to know how else you can read that. I don’t know much about Godhead, though I did like their version of Eleanor Rigby.
Prabhupada says that since “thou shalt not kill” doesn’t specify what thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not kill animals, but doesn’t accept that the same argument can be applied to plants. That’s a double standard and is inconsistent.
You can argue that, and indeed Prabhupada argues that on page 67. He’s being stupid and so would you be. The fact that scientists are willing to change their minds is the whole point of science: if that were not true it would be a religion — a distinction you have already demonstrated you do not understand.
This is not my area. The women’s liberation movement in this country was largely over by the time I found out it had ever been necessary. But until alarmingly recently women were not allowed to vote for who governed them. As a child, my mother wasn’t allowed to do woodwork because she was a girl and everyone knew girls did cooking. But still today in Islamic countries women are clad in burkhas and not allowed outside on their own or with any man other than a family member. Just yesterday The Times ran an article on the problem of Asian families taking their daughters out of the country to force them to marry their first cousins! And that’s off the top of my admittedly ignorant head and not counting the various injustices which are meted out to both sexes equally.
What have women been liberated from? “Not nearly enough” is my answer.
You don’t consider “everything in the Bhagavad-gita is true” (his words) to be an assumption?
Oh, no, because you say
Well, if Prabhupada’s reading of it is correct, then Krishna is a backward twerp who should be ignored for the good of mankind.
March 31st, 2008 at 00:05
Consider an allegory :
There is a cave. Inside prisoners are tied so that they can percieve only shadows on the back of the cave. The shadows are cast by artificial objects and light is thrown by a fire. The only reality for these prisoners would be the shadow of these artificial objects. Imagine a prisoner escapes.First he sees the artificial objects, then the fire, then the real world and last of all the sun. Each stage would be difficult and unfamiliar and at the end the enlightened subject would be unable to communicate his knowledge to the prisoners remaining below.
So it is with you and Krishna.
March 31st, 2008 at 00:13
Ooh, fun allegory game! Let me have a go!
There is a cave. Inside prisoners are sat so that they perceive only shadows on the back of the cave. The shadows are cast by artificial objects and light is thrown by a fire. As the prisoners are shown nothing but these shadows, they assume that nothing else exists and therefore it doesn’t occur to them to escape. They could leave the cave at any time, but choose not to because they think they’re as happy as you can be and are ignorant of the wonders outside the cave.
So it is with you and Krishna.
March 31st, 2008 at 01:13
the cave is the material world, outside is the reality, the truth that everything is one and everything is perfect. As far as those who choose not to leave the cave are concerned their ignorance takes the choice out of their hands. The few that do escape do so by divine intervention. Through this they realise the transience of the material world, including the subordination of all humans (not just women) – our subordination to a world that is merely an illusion(’just a fuckin ride-see’ Bill Hicks.)
Look at the world everyday people are starving to death, disease and deprevation stalk the planet, Does this make you happy? point is the solution to these problems will not come from the material world as it is not real. You speak w about womens liberation, but i speak of the liberation of the entire of humanity. The truth is that the only way we can free ourselves is by freeing our minds, free your mind and the world will change also. Religion is also part of the illusion, just another shadow on the cave wall. I am not talking of religion but truth. I am no authority on Krishna but as far as i am aware this is their central message- release yourself from the illusion, and i am sure if you speak to a member of the krishna consciousness movement(iskon)they will speak with you in a way that I cannot.
All I am saying is someone offers their knowledge freely and you barely consider it at all, indeed you mock that which you do not understand. How can you be so sure that they are wrong? it seems that you got distracted by the material world and transient knowledge and in so doing to a certain extent proved them right after all.
‘Follow me’ the wise man said, but he walked behind.
March 31st, 2008 at 12:35
So your theory is that the “material” world that I can touch and see and feel and hit you round the head with bits of is an illusion, whereas Krishna, an entity which I cannot see, cannot hear, cannot feel and have never noticed in my life, is in strict point of fact actually real. Can you see why that argument might be not-all-that-convincing?
Yes, they will.
The solution to starvation is food, you blithering lunatic. It comes exactly from the material world. If I give material money to a material charity in the material world, then they can provide material food and actually save these people. Whereas if you sit at home and pray or send them copies of Facts For Life or whatever then that might make you feel better, but it won’t help them one bit.
Freely? Who the hell mentioned “freely”? I seem to recall the book was a “gift” in exchange for a “donation”, which is really the same thing as “a sale”. But the donation was small and the book hilarious so I think I did the right thing.
Because I read their book. They’re mental.
July 11th, 2008 at 17:12
to andrews,
your arguments are full of preconceived notion that the hare krsna s are wrong.this is not the mood which a person should approach a new philosophy novice to him.u may tell it should be convincing enough that it should turn u away from ur understanding and convince u of what u are presenting,this is not correct because if u are fixed and adamant not to accept correction and not even broad minded to think what is correct and what is wrong then it is ur foolishness.u are not even broadminded to think in a unbiased manner .
u speak half revealed truths in the public and pass urself as a great man but it actually u who is crack pot fool of this centuary oh,of this millenium .
u say u are no greater authority than krishna then with what authority u commented them to be mental,u are a lunatic .iam no adherent to this faith but i can see as an outsider that this what u are speaking is foolishness.
u answer me how a person who asks to walk back can be wise man,this shows ur taste .if this is wise m,an then it shows how intellegent u are.
potato and meat:
eating potato is also sinful but less sinful as compared to eating meat because potato plant is less in conciousness as compared to that of animals .potato plants don’t scream ,fret and writhe but the potato plant donot scream and fret okay so by commenesense and don’t be ridicoulous and use ur commensense okay.in order to mitigate that sin u offer it to supreme lord krishna.okay
and mind u there is also faith in science .everywhere there is faith .even to accept the science there should be faith. even to suckle breasts of the mother there is faith.in science also there is faith .what practical model can u shoew me of darwinian’s evolution and his natural selection .have u seen electron? then why do u have faith in its existence? u may say it’s effect is felt.similarly the effect of krishna is also felt at everypoint which is completely organised.by the way what is conclusive truth o modern science.comment on it.modern science improves ur standard how to eat mate sleep and defend which even animals and birds have superior standards of doing.then what for we have got this superior intellegence than animals.if ur modern science is dependent on faith then why can’t this philosophy be science,.if this modern science which only improves the standard of eating,mating ,sleeping and defending is science ,then why can’t this science where we are proposing to mitigate the problems of life permenently (not temporarily) can’t be science.
u are speaking of bread problem :
have u ever seen aniamls starving ,if so that is only due to our stupid human intervention .thousands and thousands of elephants and other animals of this world are eating sumpoutuosly .they are not starving .so food will automatically be provided if u are dependent on supreme.he has given u strength to walk and collect food for urself but he cannot give u food isn’t it ridicoulous.so think before u talk,foolishman,think,think….
“There is a cave. Inside prisoners are tied so that they can percieve only shadows on the back of the cave. The shadows are cast by artificial objects and light is thrown by a fire. The only reality for these prisoners would be the shadow of these artificial objects. Imagine a prisoner escapes.First he sees the artificial objects, then the fire, then the real world and last of all the sun. Each stage would be difficult and unfamiliar and at the end the enlightened subject would be unable to communicate his knowledge to the prisoners remaining below.
So it is with you and Krishna.”
in ur story u donot tell anything about how the prisoner has got the idea to go out of the cave if the “dark cave ” is that all he knew.how is that he knew.so the explanation is that a person who has seen the sun by the mercy of the sun (say)can come from outside the cave and this enlightened disciple can communicate with prisoners in the cave….. this is logic. a person can never realise anything by himself,this is the truth.this how it is.it should be taught.this is the principle .now recite the whole story for ur self and then it makes sense.
although the solution for the starvation is food .this is nice.but can u provide him food for ever.so u are concerned about food provision for a person temporarily then hpow much intrest u should take to mitigate his problems of life eternally…????what do u say.
another thing if u thing knowledge can be brought by money then it is foolishness .do u think u can purchase whole “knowledge” with ur stupid “donation” indeed how foolish u are.another amn in this blog commented why such areligion exists,when fool like u who is degraded himself to such an extent that u cannot understand that u are degraded ,and indeed u are thinking u are happy ,my dear sir however happy u think u may u cannot avoid birth death oldage ,disease which is suffering.”AS LONG AS FOOLS LIKE U EXIST THERE WILL BE A MOVEMENT LIKE THIS TO DISCIPLINE AND AWAKEN U WHETHER AWAKE URSELF OR ACT LIKE SLEEPING THAT IS UPTO U”
the solution of food giving to starving is nice but it is temporary and is not eternal then why dont u accept that which mitigates problems of life eternally ??????
flipping pages and reading philosophy is foolishness ,sure u must have failed ur schooling if have read ur subjects like that what to speak of “newtonian quantum mechanics”.flipping pages and then u are concluding what is the sum of a philosophy is as if u are supreme and at the same time claiming that iam not an authority like krishna “how touchingly u contradict urself withur hypocrisy”
July 11th, 2008 at 19:17
Oh, fantastic. I hope this guy comments on some other posts.
July 12th, 2008 at 02:39
i did not understand what it means to comment on some other posts .do u mean this topic is worthless.
September 12th, 2008 at 09:39
Andrew was completely defeated by his well wisher.
Fantastic.
October 5th, 2008 at 16:27
Yes, that’s what happened.
October 6th, 2008 at 05:05
I thought you were being a bit harsh not answering the long post ur well wisher wrote to you, Andrew, but, having spent several minutes trying to decipher them (By the way, “you”, “your” and “you’re” are spelt thus), I think you’ve answered all the points he spouted, so really I’m posting to giggle at the phrase “newtonian quantum mechanics”
October 6th, 2008 at 12:30
Yeah. I did start a reply, but then I got to wondering what the point was and decided that anyone who thinks he was right isn’t going to be persuaded by such trivia as facts or logical argument and in any case, trying to respond to his points with reason is like trying to shoot a neutrino with a crossbow.